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	<title>Comments on: How to Handle Player Resistances</title>
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	<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/</link>
	<description>The blog for building the better dungeons and dragons 4th Edition Dungeon Master</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 20:46:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: CaptPoco</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-692</link>
		<dc:creator>CaptPoco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 06:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-692</guid>
		<description>This may be a bit late, but I feel like the situation you describe (boring combat in which monsters can&#039;t hurt players) should be delt with just like any other boring combat: skip it. Or make the encounter not about fighting at all. Sure, the Vampire Spawn can&#039;t really hurt the players... but they can distract them while Big Bad Vampire summons Vampirethulu. Or while he sacrifices Princess Blondeblueyed. 

But really, I think the best way to deal with such a combat is to admit that, yes, the PCs dispatch the Vampires handily, and there is much jubilation, but that it is meaningless to play out such a one-sided battle. After a few of these, the PCs will turn to non-necrotic monsters (or abandon their anti-necrotic gear) just to get the dice rolling again. If they don&#039;t it means they actually prefer one-sided conflicts, and there was no problem to begin with :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This may be a bit late, but I feel like the situation you describe (boring combat in which monsters can&#8217;t hurt players) should be delt with just like any other boring combat: skip it. Or make the encounter not about fighting at all. Sure, the Vampire Spawn can&#8217;t really hurt the players&#8230; but they can distract them while Big Bad Vampire summons Vampirethulu. Or while he sacrifices Princess Blondeblueyed. </p>
<p>But really, I think the best way to deal with such a combat is to admit that, yes, the PCs dispatch the Vampires handily, and there is much jubilation, but that it is meaningless to play out such a one-sided battle. After a few of these, the PCs will turn to non-necrotic monsters (or abandon their anti-necrotic gear) just to get the dice rolling again. If they don&#8217;t it means they actually prefer one-sided conflicts, and there was no problem to begin with <img src='http://slyflourish.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mike Karkabe-Olson</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-630</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Karkabe-Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 04:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-630</guid>
		<description>Rather than stacking ongoing damage when PCs have resistance, why not slowly diminish resistance to that keyword type as they continue to expose themselves to it in that encounter? This could be done by warning the PCs each time they expose themselves to the aura (i.e. &quot;You feel the first tingles of cold; it appears that the Lich&#039;s aura is beginning to erode your resistance&quot;) then have them mark their character sheet. For every tally mark accumulated (or three or five), their resistance is lowered by 1. Then, after the encounter is over (or they take a short rest) they can get all their resistance back. I believe this would be a lot less lethal and more fair to the players... and makes more sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather than stacking ongoing damage when PCs have resistance, why not slowly diminish resistance to that keyword type as they continue to expose themselves to it in that encounter? This could be done by warning the PCs each time they expose themselves to the aura (i.e. &#8220;You feel the first tingles of cold; it appears that the Lich&#8217;s aura is beginning to erode your resistance&#8221;) then have them mark their character sheet. For every tally mark accumulated (or three or five), their resistance is lowered by 1. Then, after the encounter is over (or they take a short rest) they can get all their resistance back. I believe this would be a lot less lethal and more fair to the players&#8230; and makes more sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-497</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-497</guid>
		<description>The key is to make sure the DM has the tools to make a battle challenging when they need to. High resistances mixed with the wrong mix of monsters can turn a challenging battle into a pushover or worse, a total slog.

I don&#039;t think its out of line to give solos and named elites a way to get around resistances when the story calls for it. Some auras or blasts are just more powerful, not in damage but in penetration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key is to make sure the DM has the tools to make a battle challenging when they need to. High resistances mixed with the wrong mix of monsters can turn a challenging battle into a pushover or worse, a total slog.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think its out of line to give solos and named elites a way to get around resistances when the story calls for it. Some auras or blasts are just more powerful, not in damage but in penetration.</p>
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		<title>By: JesterOC</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-492</link>
		<dc:creator>JesterOC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-492</guid>
		<description>Baz Stevens : No it does not, which is why I don&#039;t think it is right to change the rules on the players just because they have resist to that element.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Baz Stevens : No it does not, which is why I don&#8217;t think it is right to change the rules on the players just because they have resist to that element.</p>
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		<title>By: JesterOC</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-491</link>
		<dc:creator>JesterOC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-491</guid>
		<description>I think that increasing damage of standard monsters to get around a players abilities, or stacking continuing damage is not the way to go.  I think Saragon&#039;s article is spot on about how you should not change the monsters and rules to negate a player&#039;s powers, however that does not contribute to the issue at hand which is how to deal with players with tons of resistance.  

While it is unfair for monsters or rules to change in response to a players abilities I think that the monster&#039;s tactics should defiantly change in response to a players abilities. 

As Mike described in his article having the monster interact with the environment is a great way for the monster to fight back against resistant PCs. Aid another can also help to allow monsters without a resistible to hit more often. The key is thinking what would a PC do.

If a PC had a special sword that only kicked out fire typed damage, and he was fighting against a fire resistant monster, what would he do.  Well he would drop it and try something else.  So the monster should be able to do the same.

For example, if a Vampire Spawn which only has one attack that does 5 necrotic damage is attacking a PC with Black Iron armor (resist Necrotic 5, Fire 5) it should realize fairly quickly it can do no damage to the PC (it has an Int of 10).

So something has to give, Dave mentioned he used non necrotic claws, however I think the whole point of typed damage is not to help the monster, but it is intentionally put there by the designer to allow the PC&#039;s a chance to negate their effects. So I would not go with non necrotic claws because then all monsters best tactics would be to untype all of its attacks.  

I think monsters need a way to get around this weakness and the way to do it is by the monster utilizing the environment, and not changing the inherent nature of the monster (I know there is no mechanical difference between the two approaches but I find having the solution coming from the environment is better for story)

So have the vampire try to pick up a club, throw rocks, etc. If it makes sense that they should be able to do it, let them, just remember that it should be worse that their standard attack.  I would assume a -2 to hit and half the damage output would be fair. Also make the monsters spend actions to setup their advantages.

So allow a vampire spawn to pick up a chair and bash the PC over the head with it for 2 points of damage. Then have him waste a minor action to pick up a leg of that chair and use it as a club.  From then on he attacks with a -2 and only does 2 damage.

Doing it that way still rewords the PC&#039;s for having built up their character, but also adds memorable moments to your combats that highlight the characters strengths.

JesterOC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that increasing damage of standard monsters to get around a players abilities, or stacking continuing damage is not the way to go.  I think Saragon&#8217;s article is spot on about how you should not change the monsters and rules to negate a player&#8217;s powers, however that does not contribute to the issue at hand which is how to deal with players with tons of resistance.  </p>
<p>While it is unfair for monsters or rules to change in response to a players abilities I think that the monster&#8217;s tactics should defiantly change in response to a players abilities. </p>
<p>As Mike described in his article having the monster interact with the environment is a great way for the monster to fight back against resistant PCs. Aid another can also help to allow monsters without a resistible to hit more often. The key is thinking what would a PC do.</p>
<p>If a PC had a special sword that only kicked out fire typed damage, and he was fighting against a fire resistant monster, what would he do.  Well he would drop it and try something else.  So the monster should be able to do the same.</p>
<p>For example, if a Vampire Spawn which only has one attack that does 5 necrotic damage is attacking a PC with Black Iron armor (resist Necrotic 5, Fire 5) it should realize fairly quickly it can do no damage to the PC (it has an Int of 10).</p>
<p>So something has to give, Dave mentioned he used non necrotic claws, however I think the whole point of typed damage is not to help the monster, but it is intentionally put there by the designer to allow the PC&#8217;s a chance to negate their effects. So I would not go with non necrotic claws because then all monsters best tactics would be to untype all of its attacks.  </p>
<p>I think monsters need a way to get around this weakness and the way to do it is by the monster utilizing the environment, and not changing the inherent nature of the monster (I know there is no mechanical difference between the two approaches but I find having the solution coming from the environment is better for story)</p>
<p>So have the vampire try to pick up a club, throw rocks, etc. If it makes sense that they should be able to do it, let them, just remember that it should be worse that their standard attack.  I would assume a -2 to hit and half the damage output would be fair. Also make the monsters spend actions to setup their advantages.</p>
<p>So allow a vampire spawn to pick up a chair and bash the PC over the head with it for 2 points of damage. Then have him waste a minor action to pick up a leg of that chair and use it as a club.  From then on he attacks with a -2 and only does 2 damage.</p>
<p>Doing it that way still rewords the PC&#8217;s for having built up their character, but also adds memorable moments to your combats that highlight the characters strengths.</p>
<p>JesterOC</p>
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		<title>By: Baz Stevens</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-490</link>
		<dc:creator>Baz Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-490</guid>
		<description>Does ongoing damage of the same type stack? If it does I&#039;ve been getting it wrong for  a while now!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does ongoing damage of the same type stack? If it does I&#8217;ve been getting it wrong for  a while now!</p>
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		<title>By: Saragon</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-487</link>
		<dc:creator>Saragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-487</guid>
		<description>You got me thinking all day on this, Mike, mostly about that last paragraph (as mentioned above.) My thoughts (which mostly expanded on that last bit) can be found here: &lt;a href=&quot;http://tabletopsblog.com/?p=83&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Negating Player Effort is a Bad Thing&lt;/a&gt;. Fairly self-explanatory title, but I&#039;d welcome some feedback/dialog on the matter. I&#039;m not exactly sure I&#039;m getting my point across.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You got me thinking all day on this, Mike, mostly about that last paragraph (as mentioned above.) My thoughts (which mostly expanded on that last bit) can be found here: <a href="http://tabletopsblog.com/?p=83" rel="nofollow">Negating Player Effort is a Bad Thing</a>. Fairly self-explanatory title, but I&#8217;d welcome some feedback/dialog on the matter. I&#8217;m not exactly sure I&#8217;m getting my point across.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave T. Game</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-486</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave T. Game</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-486</guid>
		<description>I ran into this exact issue on Saturday, and didn&#039;t use my own trick, though I eventually just had some ineffectual vampire minions decided to flee. Another thing to consider is allowing the monsters to use some attacks just as normal damage... vampire minions only had a necrotic attack, but I don&#039;t know why they couldn&#039;t have just been using non-necrotic claws (even if they didn&#039;t have one in their statblock.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I ran into this exact issue on Saturday, and didn&#8217;t use my own trick, though I eventually just had some ineffectual vampire minions decided to flee. Another thing to consider is allowing the monsters to use some attacks just as normal damage&#8230; vampire minions only had a necrotic attack, but I don&#8217;t know why they couldn&#8217;t have just been using non-necrotic claws (even if they didn&#8217;t have one in their statblock.)</p>
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		<title>By: Saragon</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-484</link>
		<dc:creator>Saragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-484</guid>
		<description>That last paragraph is an incredibly important point -- players love that moment of &quot;Hah! Only took two points of damage from that attack!&quot; (or better, none at all.) Robbing them of that only works to up the drama of a combat if it&#039;s done sparingly, and with clear explanations of why in-game to help maintain that suspension of disbelief.

And yeah, adding a second damage type to an attack is a very effective way of piercing certain PC defenses. This works especially well when you know that at least one person will continue to resist that attack -- it ups the danger level for the newly vulnerable without making the party feel like you&#039;re going out of your way to subvert their character choices and hard-earned improvements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That last paragraph is an incredibly important point &#8212; players love that moment of &#8220;Hah! Only took two points of damage from that attack!&#8221; (or better, none at all.) Robbing them of that only works to up the drama of a combat if it&#8217;s done sparingly, and with clear explanations of why in-game to help maintain that suspension of disbelief.</p>
<p>And yeah, adding a second damage type to an attack is a very effective way of piercing certain PC defenses. This works especially well when you know that at least one person will continue to resist that attack &#8212; it ups the danger level for the newly vulnerable without making the party feel like you&#8217;re going out of your way to subvert their character choices and hard-earned improvements.</p>
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		<title>By: Swordgleam</title>
		<link>http://slyflourish.com/how-to-handle-player-resistances/comment-page-1/#comment-483</link>
		<dc:creator>Swordgleam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slyflourish.com/?p=722#comment-483</guid>
		<description>I like the advice, except the last bit confuses me. How is tweaking monsters cheating? To me, changing an attack from necrotic to psychic so that the players can battle a fun monsters in a way that&#039;s challenging is no more cheating than changing a fire beetle into an ice beetle so that it makes sense in your arctic setting. 

Suddenly doubling everyone&#039;s damage halfway through the battle is a little iffy, but looking at the monsters beforehand and adjusting them to your party&#039;s level of ability is just part of DMing. (Unless you&#039;re the kind of DM who runs D&amp;D more like a videogame, where beating the DM is the whole point. Not that there&#039;s anything wrong with that, it&#039;s just not very common any more.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the advice, except the last bit confuses me. How is tweaking monsters cheating? To me, changing an attack from necrotic to psychic so that the players can battle a fun monsters in a way that&#8217;s challenging is no more cheating than changing a fire beetle into an ice beetle so that it makes sense in your arctic setting. </p>
<p>Suddenly doubling everyone&#8217;s damage halfway through the battle is a little iffy, but looking at the monsters beforehand and adjusting them to your party&#8217;s level of ability is just part of DMing. (Unless you&#8217;re the kind of DM who runs D&amp;D more like a videogame, where beating the DM is the whole point. Not that there&#8217;s anything wrong with that, it&#8217;s just not very common any more.)</p>
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